SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) — Alec Baldwin 's defense attorney questioned a crime scene technician over what he suggested were shoddy and subpar searches for the live ammunition that ended up in the actor's revolver and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins.
On the second day of Baldwin's New Mexico involuntary manslaughter trial, Judge Mary Marlowe Sommer sided with the prosecution on Thursday in letting in key statements from the actor that demonstrate his knowledge of guns and the impact of blanks.
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Actor Stephen Baldwin, left, and his sister Elizabeth Keuchler arrive at the courthouse for the second day of their brother Alec Baldwin's trial Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, NM. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Firearms expert Alessandro Pietta testifies during actor Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Crime scene technician Marissa Poppell attends Alec Baldwin's involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Cpl. Alexandra Hancock of the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office testifies during Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Actor Alec Baldwin approaches his wife Hilaria during his trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Firearms expert Alessandro Pietta testifies during Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Alec Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
A photo is displayed on a screen during Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Judge Mary Marlowe takes part in Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Attorney Gloria Allred arrives at the courthouse for actor Alec Baldwin's involuntary manslaughter trial while holding a photograph of "Rust" film cinematographer Halyna Hutchins Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, NM. Allred represents the Ukraine-based parents of Hutchins and a sister of the deceased cinematographer in a civil lawsuit against Baldwin and other "Rust" producers and the film's gun-safety crew. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey and judge Mary Marlowe take part in Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Attorney Alex Spiro attends Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
A view of the courtroom during Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey attends Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Hilaria Baldwin attends her husband Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Hilaria Baldwin attends her husband Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Actor Alec Baldwin, left, exits Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. with his wife Hilaria Baldwin and sister Elizabeth Keuchler, right. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Actor Alec Baldwin and his wife Hilaria Baldwin leave District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, following the day's proceedings in his involuntary manslaughter trial in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Alec Baldwin arrives to attend his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin arrives to attend his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
FILE - This aerial photo shows the movie set of "Rust," at Bonanza Creek Ranch in Santa Fe, N.M., Oct. 23, 2021. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong, File)
Media members gather outside District Court as they await the arrival of Actor Alec Baldwin, for jury selection in his involuntary manslaughter trial, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Hilaria Baldwin listens during her husband actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Attorney Luke Nikas, left, and actor Alec Baldwin listen during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin listens during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin and his wife Hilaria Baldwin leave District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, following the day's proceedings in his involuntary manslaughter trial in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Special prosecutors Kari Morrissey, left, and Erlinda Ocampo Johnson speak during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey holds an evidence bag with a bullet in it during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Law enforcement officer Nicholas LeFleur testifies during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Judge Mary Marlowe Sommer speaks during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin interacts with wife Hilaria Baldwin during a break in his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Alec Baldwin wipes his eyes during a preliminary hearing in his involuntary manslaughter trial over a fatal shooting on the set of the film, "Rust," in Santa Fe, N.M., Monday, July 8, 2024. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Jonathan Zwiebel, left, and his mother Janelle Rogers stand outside District Court demanding justice for cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, during the trial of actor Alec Baldwin, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Actor Stephen Baldwin and Hilaria Baldwin, wife of Alec Baldwin, listen during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
A video scene showing Actor Alec Baldwin is viewed during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin interacts with his wife Hilaria Baldwin during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin listens during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Earlier, Alex Spiro grilled Santa Fe County sheriff's technician Marissa Poppell in particular over search warrants served on a prop truck a week after the death of Hutchins on the set of the movie “Rust,” and on a prop warehouse more than a month after her shooting.
The questions eventually led to Spiro asking Poppell whether police and prosecutors "were just trying to get this over with so that prosecutors could focus on Alec Baldwin?”
“No,” she answered.
In assertions that would be hotly disputed and dismissed by the prosecution, defense questioning mostly centered on the searches of Seth Kenney's warehouse and a prop truck where his guns were kept in a safe. He is an Albuquerque-based ammunition and weapons supplier to “Rust,” who forged a cooperative relationship with investigators in the immediate aftermath of the fatal shooting.
Spiro suggested that relationship may have been too close.
“There was a witness there who assisted in the search,” Spiro said when asking about the warrant served on the truck. “A man named Seth Kenney. And not only did he assist, he actually was the one that opened the safe.”
“Yes, he had the combination to it,” Poppell said.
Spiro asked, "Why did law enforcement wait a week to go to the prop truck?"
“The search warrant needed to be written,” Poppell replied. “I’m not sure why the time difference exactly.”
Spiro responded that a search warrant for the church building set where the shooting took place was obtained in a day.
“If you can do a search warrant in one day for one thing why does it take seven days for something else?”
Spiro asked Poppell, who found a half-dozen live rounds on the set, if she was surprised to find none in the truck.
“Not necessarily,” she said.
“You’re finding these live rounds all over the set, right?” Spiro asked. Poppell replied yes.
“You go a week later to the prop truck, which has all the ammunition right?” Spiro asked. “And there’s not a single live round there, right?”
Poppell replied “yes” to both.
“Let me ask you something,” the attorney said eventually. “At any point did you become suspicious of Seth Kenney?”
Poppell answered, “No.”
Kenney has not been charged with any wrongdoing. An email sent to his attorney seeking comment was not immediately returned.
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey in her redirect questioning of Poppell sought to render irrelevant the defendant's approach by asking whether Alec Baldwin was charged with involuntary manslaughter because he brought live rounds onto the set or loaded them into his gun. Poppell answered “no” to both.
Poppell agreed there was evidence that Hannah Gutierrez-Reed — the film's armorer who has already been convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the shooting — had brought the ammunition, which she said was given to her by her father.
Morrissey's defense of Kenney's role extended into her questioning of the case's lead detective, sheriff's Cpl. Alexandria Hancock, who testified briefly at the end of the day and will likely be on the stand for much of Friday.
“Did you ever discover any evidence throughout your entire investigation that Seth Kenney supplied live rounds to the set of ‘Rust?’” Morrissey asked. Hancock said no.
The prosecution was especially contemptuous of defense questions to Poppell about bullets brought into the sheriff's department after the Gutierrez-Reed trial earlier this year by a good Samaritan who said the ammunition was the source of the round that killed Hutchins and that Kenney had duped authorities.
Spiro said that Poppell had “buried” this evidence and it had not been shared with the defense in either Baldwin's case or that of Gutierrez-Reed.
Morrissey established in her questioning that the source of the ammunition was Troy Teske, a friend of Gutierrez-Reed's father, and despite similarities was not the same size as the live rounds found on the “Rust” set, including the one that killed Hutchins.
“The ammunition that the good Samaritan Mr. Teske, close friend of Hannah Gutierrez's dad, brought to you after her conviction do you still have it?”
Poppell replied yes.
“You could bring it in here and show it to the jury and they could see for themselves that it does not match the live ammunition from the set of ‘Rust?’”
Yes, the technician answered.
Spiro got Poppell to testify that it could be very difficult to tell the difference between dummy rounds made to appear as onscreen ammunition that were used on the set, and the live rounds that turned the set fatal.
It was an attempt to push back against the key assertion of prosecutors' case: that Baldwin recklessly flouted gun safety.
Hutchins’ death and the wounding of director Joel Souza nearly three years ago sent shock waves through the film industry. The fatal shooting led to the felony involuntary manslaughter charge against Baldwin, the 66-year-old star of “30 Rock” and frequent host of “Saturday Night Live,” that could result in up to 18 months in prison.
His wife Hilaria Baldwin, younger brother Stephen Baldwin and older sister Elizabeth Keuchler sat behind him in the gallery for each of the first two days.
Dalton reported from Los Angeles.
Actor Stephen Baldwin, left, and his sister Elizabeth Keuchler arrive at the courthouse for the second day of their brother Alec Baldwin's trial Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, NM. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Firearms expert Alessandro Pietta testifies during actor Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Crime scene technician Marissa Poppell attends Alec Baldwin's involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Cpl. Alexandra Hancock of the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office testifies during Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Actor Alec Baldwin approaches his wife Hilaria during his trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Firearms expert Alessandro Pietta testifies during Alec Baldwin's trial, Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Alec Baldwin is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his involuntary manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin attends his manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
A photo is displayed on a screen during Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Judge Mary Marlowe takes part in Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Attorney Gloria Allred arrives at the courthouse for actor Alec Baldwin's involuntary manslaughter trial while holding a photograph of "Rust" film cinematographer Halyna Hutchins Thursday, July 11, 2024, in Santa Fe, NM. Allred represents the Ukraine-based parents of Hutchins and a sister of the deceased cinematographer in a civil lawsuit against Baldwin and other "Rust" producers and the film's gun-safety crew. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey and judge Mary Marlowe take part in Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Attorney Alex Spiro attends Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
A view of the courtroom during Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey attends Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Hilaria Baldwin attends her husband Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Hilaria Baldwin attends her husband Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial for the 2021 fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during filming of the Western movie "Rust", in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Actor Alec Baldwin, left, exits Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. with his wife Hilaria Baldwin and sister Elizabeth Keuchler, right. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)
Actor Alec Baldwin and his wife Hilaria Baldwin leave District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, following the day's proceedings in his involuntary manslaughter trial in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Alec Baldwin arrives to attend his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin arrives to attend his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
Alec Baldwin sits in court during his trial in Santa Fe, N.M., Thursday, July 11, 2024. Baldwin is facing a charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer on the set of the film "Rust". (Ramsay de Give/Pool Photo via AP)
FILE - This aerial photo shows the movie set of "Rust," at Bonanza Creek Ranch in Santa Fe, N.M., Oct. 23, 2021. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong, File)
Media members gather outside District Court as they await the arrival of Actor Alec Baldwin, for jury selection in his involuntary manslaughter trial, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Hilaria Baldwin listens during her husband actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Attorney Luke Nikas, left, and actor Alec Baldwin listen during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin listens during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin and his wife Hilaria Baldwin leave District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, following the day's proceedings in his involuntary manslaughter trial in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Special prosecutors Kari Morrissey, left, and Erlinda Ocampo Johnson speak during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Special prosecutor Kari Morrissey holds an evidence bag with a bullet in it during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Law enforcement officer Nicholas LeFleur testifies during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Judge Mary Marlowe Sommer speaks during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin interacts with wife Hilaria Baldwin during a break in his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Alec Baldwin wipes his eyes during a preliminary hearing in his involuntary manslaughter trial over a fatal shooting on the set of the film, "Rust," in Santa Fe, N.M., Monday, July 8, 2024. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Jonathan Zwiebel, left, and his mother Janelle Rogers stand outside District Court demanding justice for cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, during the trial of actor Alec Baldwin, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. (AP Photo/Roberto E. Rosales)
Actor Stephen Baldwin and Hilaria Baldwin, wife of Alec Baldwin, listen during actor Alec Baldwin's hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
A video scene showing Actor Alec Baldwin is viewed during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin interacts with his wife Hilaria Baldwin during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
Actor Alec Baldwin listens during his hearing in Santa Fe County District Court, Wednesday, July 10, 2024, in Santa Fe, N.M. Baldwin is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a cinematographer. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin, Pool)
WASHINGTON (AP) — Democrats and Republicans alike raised concerns on Wednesday about deep staffing cuts, funding freezes and far-reaching policy changes overseen by U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
A bipartisan group of lawmakers questioned Kennedy’s approach to the job, some saying that he has jeopardized vaccine uptake, cancer research and dental health in just a few short months.
In combative and at times highly personal rejoinders, Kennedy defended the Trump administration’s dramatic effort to reshape the sprawling, $1.7 trillion-a-year agency, saying it would deliver a more efficient department focused on promoting healthier lifestyles among Americans.
“There’s so much chaos and disorganization in this department,” Kennedy said on Wednesday during the Senate hearing. “What we’re saying is let’s organize in a way that we can quickly adopt and deploy all these opportunities we have to really deliver high-quality health care to the American people.”
During tense exchanges, lawmakers — in back to back House and Senate hearings — sometimes questioned whether Kennedy was aware of his actions and the structure of his own department after he struggled to provide more details about staffing cuts.
"I have noted you've been unable, in most instances, to answer any specific questions related to your agency," said Sen. Angela Alsobrooks, a Maryland Democrat.
The secretary, in turn, pushed back — saying he had not had time to answer specific questions — and at points questioning lawmakers' own grasp of health policy.
Kennedy testified to explain his downsizing of the department — from 82,000 to 62,000 staffers — and argue on behalf of the White House’s requested budget, which includes a $500 million boost for Kennedy’s “Make America Healthy Again” initiative to promote nutrition and healthier lifestyles while making deep cuts to infectious disease prevention, medical research and maternal health programs.
He revealed that he persuaded the White House to back down from one major cut: Head Start, a federally-funded preschool program for low-income families across the country. provides preschool funding.
But lawmakers described how thousands of job losses at the health department and funding freezes have impacted their districts.
One Washington state mother, Natalie, has faced delays in treatment for stage 4 cancer at the National Institutes of Health's Clinical Center, said Democratic Sen. Patty Murray. The clinical center is the research-only hospital commonly known as the “House of Hope,” but when Murray asked Kennedy to explain how many jobs have been lost there, he could not answer. The president's budget proposes a nearly $20 billion slash from the NIH.
“You are here to defend cutting the NIH by half,” Murray said. “Do you genuinely believe that won't result in more stories like Natalie's?” Kennedy disputed Murray's account.
Democrat Rep. Bonnie Watson-Coleman of New Jersey asked “why, why, why” Kennedy would lay off nearly all the staff that oversees the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, which provides $4.1 billion in heating assistance to needy families. The program is slated to be eliminated from the agency’s budget.
Kennedy said that advocates warned him those cuts “will end up killing people,” but that President Donald Trump believes his energy policy will lower costs. If that doesn’t work, Kennedy said, he would restore funding for the program.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski, a Republican of Alaska, said those savings would be realized too late for people in her state.
“Right now, folks in Alaska still need those ugly generators to keep warm,” she said.
Murkowski was one of several Republicans who expressed concerns about Kennedy’s approach to the job throughout the hearings.
Like several Republicans, Rep. Chuck Fleischmann of Tennessee praised Kennedy for his work promoting healthy foods. But he raised concerns about whether the secretary has provided adequate evidence that artificial food dyes are bad for diets. Removing those food dyes would hurt the “many snack manufacturers” in his district, including the makers of M&Ms candy, he said.
Rep. Mike Simpson, a dentist from Idaho, said Kennedy’s plan to remove fluoride recommendations for drinking water alarms him. The department’s press release on Tuesday, which announced the Food and Drug Administration plans to remove fluoride supplements for children from the market, wrongly claimed that fluoride “kills bacteria from the teeth,” Simpson noted. He explained to Kennedy that fluoride doesn’t kill bacteria in the mouth but instead makes tooth enamel more resistant to decay.
“I will tell you that if you are successful in banning fluoride … we better put a lot more money into dental education because we’re going to need a lot more dentists,” Simpson added.
Kennedy was pressed repeatedly on the mixed message he’s delivered on vaccines, which public health experts have said are hampering efforts to contain a growing measles outbreak now in at least 11 states.
Responding to Sen. Chris Murphy, a Democrat of Connecticut, Kennedy refused to recommend that parents follow the nation's childhood vaccination schedule, which includes shots for measles, polio and whooping cough. He, instead, wrongly claimed that the vaccines have not been safety tested against a placebo.
Sen. Bill Cassidy, a Republican of Louisiana and chairman of the health committee, had extracted a number of guarantees from Kennedy that he would not alter existing vaccine guidance and work at the nation's health department. Cassidy, correcting Kennedy, pointed out that rotavirus, measles and HPV vaccines recommended for children have all been tested in a placebo study.
As health secretary, Kennedy has called the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine — a shot given to children to provide immunity from all three diseases — “leaky,” although it offers lifetime protection from the measles for most people. He’s also said they cause deaths, although none has been documented among healthy people.
“You have undermined the vital role vaccines play in preventing disease during the single, largest measles outbreak in 25 years,” Democratic Sen. Bernie Sanders said.
Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appears during a budget hearing before a House Appropriations, Subcommittee at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, May 14, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/John McDonnell)
Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appears during a budget hearing before a House Appropriations, Subcommittee at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, May 14, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/John McDonnell)
Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appears at budget hearing before a House Appropriations, Subcommittee at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, May 14, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/John McDonnell)
Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appears during a budget hearing before a House Appropriations, Subcommittee at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, May 14, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/John McDonnell)
FILE - Sen. Bill Cassidy, R-La., votes aye at the final moment as the Senate Finance Committee holds a roll call vote to approve the nomination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Health and Human Services Department, at the Capitol in Washington, Feb. 4, 2025. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite, File)
Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. speaks during an event in the Roosevelt Room at the White House, Monday, May 12, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/Mark Schiefelbein)