Joker is back, this time with Lady Gaga — and songs

VENICE, Italy (AP) — “ Joker ” is a hard act to follow. Todd Phillips’ dark, Scorsese-inspired character study about the Batman villain made over a billion dollars at the box office, won Joaquin Phoenix his first Oscar, dominated the cultural discourse for months and created a new movie landmark.

It wasn’t for everyone, but it got under people’s skin.

Knowing that it was a fool’s errand to try to do it again, Phillips and Phoenix pivoted, or rather, pirouetted into what would become “ Joker: Folie à Deux.” The dark and fantastical musical journey goes deeper into the mind of Arthur Fleck as he awaits trial for murder and falls in love with a fellow Arkham inmate, Lee, played by Lady Gaga. There is singing, dancing and mayhem.

If Phillips and Phoenix have learned anything over the years, it’s that the scarier something is, the better. So once again they rebelled against expectations and went for broke with something that’s already sharply divided critics.

As with the first, audiences will get to decide for themselves when it opens in theaters on Oct. 4.

Any comic book movie that makes a billion dollars is going to have the sequel talk. But with “Joker” it was never a given that it would go anywhere: Joaquin Phoenix doesn’t do sequels. Yet it turned out, Phoenix wasn’t quite done with Arthur Fleck yet either.

During the first, the actor wondered what this character would look like in different situations. He and the on-set photographer mocked up classic movie posters, like “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” and “Yentl” with the Joker in them and showed them to Phillips.

“Sometimes you’re just done with something and other times you have an ongoing interest,” Phoenix said. “There was just more to explore. … I just felt like we weren’t done.”

So Phillips and his co-writer Scott Silver got to work on a new script, one that leaned into the music in Arthur Fleck’s head. Then his dreary Arkham life turns to Technicolor when he meets and falls for Lee, a Joker superfan.

“Joaquin Phoenix is not going to do a line drive. He’s not going to do something that’s fan service,” Phillips said. “He wanted to be as scared as he was with the first movie. So, we tried to make something that is as audacious and out there and hopefully people get it.”

One decision that’s already sparking debate is casting someone with a voice like Lady Gaga’s and not using that instrument to its full power. Phillips, who was a producer on “A Star is Born,” wanted someone who “brought music with them.” But Lee isn’t a singer.

“Singing is so second nature to me, and making music and performing on stage is so inside of me. Especially this music,” Gaga said. “I worked extensively on untraining myself for this movie and throwing away as much as I could all the time to make sure I was never locking into what I do. I had to really kind of erase it all.”

Phoenix, who wasn't quite sure what it would be like working with someone who has such a larger-than-life superstar persona, found Gaga to be refreshingly unpretentious and available. And as an actor, he admired her commitment to the character.

“Her power is in singing and singing a particular way,” he said. “For her to sacrifice that through character, to do something that people would call a musical, but to not be performing it in the way that would sound best as a singer but to approach it from the character was a very difficult process. I was really impressed with her willingness to do that.”

In addition to writing a “waltz that falls apart” for the film, Gaga is releasing a companion album, “Harlequin” on Friday with song titles including “Oh, When the Saints,” “World on a String,” “If My Friends Could See Me Now” and “That’s Life."

Much like Phoenix’s Joker isn’t Heath Ledger’s or Jack Nicholson’s, Gaga’s Lee is not the Harley Quinn of “Birds of Prey.”

“We’re never going to outdo what Margot Robbie did,” Phillips said. “You have to do something 180 degrees in the other direction.”

Sure, Lee will still casually light something on fire to get some time alone with Joker, but the tumult is more internal. And Gaga threw herself into making Lee something new: A real person, grounded in a reality that came before her.

“I spent a lot of my time on developing her inner life (which) for me had a lot to do with her storm and what thing was always making her about to explode,” Gaga said. “There’s a particular kind of danger that she carries with her, but it’s inside and it’s kind of explosive.”

Brendan Gleeson didn’t have much hesitation about joining the ensemble. He’d worked with Phoenix before on “The Village” and was in awe of what he’d done on the first movie.

“He has an absolute relentless integrity and curiosity and drive,” Gleeson said. “He won’t just plough the same furrow for its own sake.”

But he also didn’t want to play the simple version of an Arkham prison guard.

“I said, look, do you just want a brute? Because I’m not sure I just want to do a brute,” Gleeson said. “He wanted something more. We tried to find layers in this guy.”

Anyone who has worked with Phoenix knows that he likes to keep things fresh. That may mean something as small as changing the location of a prop or as big as throwing out choreography that you’ve been rehearsing for months at the last minute.

“I think we both love mayhem and not just in movies but on the set,” Phillips said. “It had to feel like anything can happen.”

With the crew 95% the same as the first, everyone was ready to be flexible. Gaga, too, dove right in, suggesting that they sing live on camera.

“It changed the whole making of the film,” Phillips said. “We were not only singing live, we were singing live differently every take.”

Since Arthur killed Robert De Niro’s talk show host Murray Franklin on live television in the first film, he’s become a kind of icon and curiosity thanks in no small part to an oft referenced, but never seen, television movie that was made about him. Now, the trial is going to be televised as well.

“Underneath it all, there’s this idea of corruption and how everything is corrupt in the system, from the prison system to the judicial system to the idea of entertainment, quite frankly,” Phillips said. “This idea that in the States at least, everything is entertainment. A court trial could be entertainment, and a presidential election can be entertainment. So, if that’s true, what is entertainment?”

It’s easier to be to the insurgent, not the incumbent, Phillips said. Although a Joker film is never going to fly completely under the radar, the spotlight is undoubtedly more intense this time around.

“You do feel like you have a larger target on your back,” Phillips said.

While much of the film was made on Warner Bros. soundstages in Los Angeles, the production did go back to New York to film again on the Bronx staircase (which now come up on Google Maps as the Joker Stairs) and outside a Manhattan courthouse. The production staged a massive protest scene, with Gaga, almost concurrently with the media frenzy around the Donald Trump hush money trial as if there weren’t enough eyes on them already.

Some are also handwringing about the sequel’s bigger budget and whether it can match the success of the first. But Phillips has learned to take it in stride.

“There’s a different amount of pressure, but that just comes with making movies,” he said. “You can’t please everybody and you just kind of go for it.”

Gleeson has an even sunnier outlook.

“It has kind of arthouse movie integrity on a blockbuster scale. It’s great news for cinema, is the way I look on it,” Gleeson said. “If these event movies can continue to have depth and can be so conflicting like this one, is we needn’t worry about the future of cinema.”

One thing Phillips didn’t mean to do was ignite a discourse about what is and isn’t a musical. He’s just trying to manage expectations.

“People go, ‘what do you mean it’s not a musical?’ And it is a musical. It has all the elements of a musical. But I guess what I mean by it is all the musicals I’ve seen leave me happy at the end for the most part, ‘Umbrellas of Cherbourg’ not being one of them. This has so much sadness in it that I just didn’t want to be misleading to people.”

This image released by Warner Bros. Pictures shows promotional art for "Joker: Folie à Deux." (Warner Bros. Pictures via AP)

FILE - Director Todd Phillips appears at the photo call for the film "Joker: Folie A Deux" during the 81st edition of the Venice Film Festival in Venice, Italy, on Sept. 4, 2024. (Photo by Vianney Le Caer/Invision/AP, File)

FILE - Joaquin Phoenix appears at the photo call for the film "Joker: Folie A Deux" during the 81st edition of the Venice Film Festival in Venice, Italy, on Sept. 4, 2024. (Photo by Vianney Le Caer/Invision/AP, File)

FILE - Lady Gaga appears at the photo call for the film "Joker: Folie A Deux" during the 81st edition of the Venice Film Festival in Venice, Italy, on Sept. 4, 2024. (Photo by Vianney Le Caer/Invision/AP, File)

This image released by Warner Bros. Pictures shows Joaquin Phoenix, foreground center, and Brendan Gleeson, background center, in a scene from "Joker: Folie à Deux." (Niko Tavernise/Warner Bros. Pictures via AP)

This image released by Warner Bros. Pictures shows Joaquin Phoenix, left, and Lady Gaga in a scene from "Joker: Folie à Deux." (Niko Tavernise/Warner Bros. Pictures via AP)

FILE - Lady Gaga, from left, director Todd Phillips, and Joaquin Phoenix pose for photographers at the photo call for the film "Joker: Folie A Deux" during the 81st edition of the Venice Film Festival in Venice, Italy, on Sept. 4, 2024. (Photo by Vianney Le Caer/Invision/AP, File)

This image released by Warner Bros. Pictures shows Joaquin Phoenix, left, and Lady Gaga in a scene from "Joker: Folie à Deux." (Niko Tavernise/Warner Bros. Pictures via AP)

This image released by Warner Bros. Pictures shows actors Lady Gaga, left, and Joaquin Phoenix, center, on the set with filmmaker Todd Phillips during the filming of "Joker: Folie à Deux." (Niko Tavernise/Warner Bros. Pictures via AP)

WASHINGTON (AP) — With American support for Ukraine at a partisan crossroads, Vice President Kamala Harris on Thursday slammed suggestions that Kyiv should cede territory for the sake of peace with Moscow as “dangerous and unacceptable.”

The Democratic presidential nominee spoke alongside Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy as she unleashed the veiled criticism of Republican candidate Donald Trump's push for Ukraine to quickly cut a deal to end the war.

“They are not proposals for peace,” Harris said. “Instead they are proposals for surrender.”

Her comments were a reminder of the high stakes for the war effort in this year's election. Trump, for his part, has criticized U.S. assistance for Ukraine, praised Russian President Vladimir Putin and faulted Zelenskyy for the ongoing bloodshed.

Trump said he will meet with Zelenskyy in New York on Friday after days of questions over whether the two leaders will sit down together. He rejected Harris' criticisms and insisted that he only wants to stop the “horror show that's gone on.”

Asked if Ukraine should give up territory, Trump said “we'll see what happens” and “we need peace.”

Before announcing the meeting with Zelenskyy, Trump posted on social media a purported message from the Ukrainian leader asking to see him. The message, which was not confirmed by Ukrainian officials, said “we have to strive to understand each other.”

The decision to publicly disclose what appeared to be private communications, however benign their contents, was a reminder of the tension that's been brewing between Trump and Zelenskyy.

It was a far different impression than Harris delivered on Thursday as she embraced Ukraine's defense and outlined a broader foreign policy vision rooted in “international order, rules and norms.” Harris rejected calls for the U.S. to walk away from its global role and warned that potential aggressors could be emboldened if Putin emerges victorious.

“The United States supports Ukraine not out of charity, but because it’s in our strategic interest,” Harris said.

Zelenskyy was in Washington to present the White House and Congress with his plans for reaching an endgame in the war by improving Ukraine's chances on the battlefield and its eventual leverage at the negotiating table. He's pushing to lift restrictions on using long-range Western weapons to strike targets deeper in Russian territory.

No movement on this issue was evident during Zelenskyy's visit. However, Biden announced billions of dollars more in missiles, drones, ammunition and other supplies. The weapons include an additional Patriot missile defense battery and a new shipment of glide bombs that can be deployed from Western fighter jets, increasing their strike range.

Biden pledged to ensure that all approved funding is disbursed before he leaves office, and he said he plans to convene a meeting with other world leaders focused on Ukraine’s defense during a visit to Germany next month.

“We stand with Ukraine, now and in the future," Biden said alongside Zelenskyy in the Oval Office. “Russia will not prevail. Ukraine will prevail.”

Ukrainian officials are anxious to maintain good relations with whomever becomes the next president of the United States, which is its biggest and most important provider of arms, money and other support. But the effort risks slipping into the political blender of the presidential campaign, polarizing the discussion around a war that used to be a bipartisan cause célèbre in Washington.

About two thirds of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents said the U.S. has a responsibility to help Ukraine, compared with one third of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents, according to a Pew Research Center poll conducted in July.

Americans are also split on which presidential candidate would do a better job handling the war. An AP-NORC poll from August found that about one-third of Americans said they trusted Harris more, while a similar share said the same about Trump.

On Thursday, Zelenskyy found some bipartisan support as he visited Capitol Hill, where he was greeted by Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell.

Sen. Lindsay Graham, a South Carolina Republican, said Zelenskyy asked to use long-range weapons, such as British-supplied Storm Shadow missiles or U.S.-made ATACMS, for “maximum benefit to bring Putin to the table” and increase Ukraine's negotiating position.

"If we don’t make that fundamental choice this week, I think the outcome for Ukraine is dire,” Graham said.

Administration officials have been skeptical of Zelenskyy's request, believing the weapons could have limited benefits but increase the risk of escalating the conflict. Sen. Richard Blumenthal, a Connecticut Democrat, said senators gave Zelenskyy advice on how to persuade Biden to loosen restrictions.

Rep. Jim Himes, another Connecticut Democrat and the ranking member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said Zelenskyy wanted “more, faster.”

“He was politely frustrated," Himes said, and specifically requested more Patriot missile defenses as Russia escalates strikes on Ukraine's cities and energy grid before the winter.

Zelenskyy faces a much more tense situation with Trump. The latest round of sniping started on Sunday, when The New Yorker published an interview with Zelenskyy in which he criticized JD Vance, Trump's running mate, as “too radical” for suggesting that Ukraine needs to give up some territory to end the war. Zelenskyy also dismissed Trump's boasts that he could quickly negotiate a solution, saying “my feeling is that Trump doesn’t really know how to stop the war even if he might think he knows how.”

On the same day, Zelenskyy toured a Pennsylvania factory producing munitions for the war. He was joined by Democratic Gov. Josh Shapiro, a top surrogate for Harris, and Republicans criticized the visit as a political stunt in a political battleground state.

House Speaker Mike Johnson demanded that Zelenskyy fire the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S., alleging that the tour was “designed to help Democrats and is clearly election interference.” The Louisiana Republican didn't attend any of lawmakers' meetings with Zelenskyy on Thursday.

Trump complained this week that Zelenskyy is “making little nasty aspersions toward your favorite president, me.” He also described the Ukrainian leader as “the greatest salesman on Earth” for securing U.S. support, and he complained that “we continue to give billions of dollars to a man who refuses to make a deal” to end the war. Trump’s message dovetails with Russian propaganda that claims intransigence by Kyiv — not aggression from Moscow — has prolonged the bloodshed.

Max Bergmann, director of the Europe, Russia and Eurasia program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said Zelenskyy is in a “no-win situation" where he “can’t even visit a U.S. weapons manufacturer to say thank you without being attacked.”

Trump was impeached during his first term over asking Zelenskyy for help investigating Biden, then a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, at a time when the Ukrainian leader was seeking support from Washington. Now there are fears that Trump would cut off or add strings to U.S. military assistance if he returned to the White House.

Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said Trump is not wrong to want a negotiated end to the war. However, he said, Trump risks undermining Ukraine by enabling Putin to make more gains on the battlefield.

“Neither Ukraine nor Russia is going to win this war, and the sooner that the parties try to end this, the better," Kupchan said. "Where Trump goes off course, and where Biden and Harris have a much stronger argument, is that we get to that point not by throwing Ukraine under the bus but by giving them sufficient support so they can block further Russian aggression.”

Vice President Kamala Harris meets with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2024, in the vice president's ceremonial office inside the Eisenhower Executive Office Building on the White House complex in Washington. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin)

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, center, walks with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., left, and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., as he arrives for a briefing with lawmakers about the war effort against Russia, at the Capitol in Washington, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2024. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, center, gestures with his hand over his heart after a closed meeting with lawmakers in the House of Representatives about the war effort against Russia, at the Capitol in Washington, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2024. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, center, walks with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., left, and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., as he arrives for a briefing with lawmakers about the war effort against Russia, at the Capitol in Washington, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2024. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)

President Joe Biden speaks at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2024, in New York. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta)

Democratic presidential nominee Vice President Kamala Harris addresses the Economic Club of Pittsburgh on the Carnegie Mellon University campus in Pittsburgh, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2024. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy arrives to address the 79th session of the United Nations General Assembly, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2024, at the UN headquarters. (AP Photo/Julia Demaree Nikhinson)

Zelenskyy is visiting the White House as a partisan divide grows over Ukraine war

Zelenskyy is visiting the White House as a partisan divide grows over Ukraine war