Ryan Coogler and Michael B. Jordan on reteaming for ‘Sinners’

Ryan Coogler was the one who convinced Michael B. Jordan he could be a movie star.

That was 13 years ago on “Fruitvale Station,” Jordan’s first time leading a feature film and Coogler’s first time making one. And it was the start of an enviably rich creative collaboration that would take them from the Rocky franchise to Wakanda.

In “Sinners,” Coogler pushed his go-to actor to the next level: Jordan isn’t just starring in the genre-bending big screen spectacle with blues music, vampires and Southern lore. He’s playing identical twins.

Over the years, Coogler has watched Jordan grow up on screen. While he may have started as the young man being mentored in his films, on “Sinners" he saw Jordan become “the elder statesmen” on camera and off taking newcomers like Miles Caton under his wing.

The two spoke to The Associated Press about upping the ante with “Sinners,” the excitement of making something original and how the experience changed them. Remarks have been edited for clarity and brevity.

COOGLER: Always. What’s great is, though it may seem like we’re together all the time, we go a long, long time without seeing each other. We keep in touch. We check in for major life milestones. We’ve got business together that’s long lasting, like the Creed franchise. We always going to be tucked in and connected there. Our families are connected. But the intensity of our work is very seasonal.

When we have a project and when we get back together, we’ve always found ways to up the ante. This time he came back and he’d just directed a movie. That gave him a new perspective and like a new set of tools. When I work with an actor who’s capable of all the things Mike is, I also know that I gotta tell him, “Hey man, it’s OK to let all that go.” It is not dissimilar to a conversation I had with Stallone.

And for me it’s exciting to provide him opportunities to stretch in ways. I knew he had Killmonger in him. I knew he had Adonis Creed in him. Obviously, I knew he had a portrayal of Oscar Grant there, and I knew that he could do this, but I did not have any comprehension of how well he was going to do it.

JORDAN: There’s nothing for you to pull from that already exists. There’s no boundaries, no limitations, there’s no preconceived notions. I have the original source right there.

There were so many things that maybe weren’t on the page, but through conversation and through debate we discovered something else that kind of came from that. Like we were trying to figure out the rules with this particular set of vampires, with this particular environment, in this world, in this universe we’re building.

There was a lot of laughter and lightness discovering those things. That felt really good, but because it was from him, he was the judge, juror and executioner.

COOGLER: Each movie does that. Each time I discover something about myself and the world around me.

This had a pressure on it and a lot of that was self-imposed. Though I’ve spent the better part of my adulthood making movies professionally and releasing them theatrically, filmgoers don’t really know that much about me, just by the fact that it’s surprising to people that I’m making a film with horror elements. Anybody who knows me knows I love those types of movies.

I’ve also been thinking about the Great Migration, talking to older family members, interviewing the ones who came to Oakland from other places. A lot of what triggered that kind of came around the death of my Uncle James. When he passed away he was the oldest male member of my family, and the last one who was from Mississippi. Losing him left me with blues music, I would listen to all his records to kind of try to conjure his spirit.

That was what the main motivation was behind all this. This whole thing was an exercise in exposing my own interests, both cinematically and personally.

JORDAN: Through my relationship with Ryan and the movies that he’s curious about, the stories that he wants to tell, I’m in proximity of that and I’m doing the same exploration.

Now I have this deep education, this deep understanding of the Jim Crow South and blues music. Also this idea of freedom and another layered idea of what family is and what my grandparents went through. While I was filming, my dad came down to visit me and I talked a lot with my mom, and she was sending me old pictures of my grandparents when they were young like partying and things like that. All that stuff kind of puts some things in perspective. It reframed things for me a little bit. And I’m really grateful for that.

COOGLER: It’s in the title of the movie, “Sinners.” The act of passing judgment, the act of casting judgment is something that we do here in this country on both this time period, like the 1930s, the Great Depression era, and the height of the Jim Crow era. It’s a very difficult period for people to reckon with in almost every culture universally.

It’s oftentimes passed over, like, not wanting to be looked at, dealt with, reckoned with, because of all the difficulties associated with it. And in not looking at that, not interrogating it, you also leave out a lot of beauty and the insane strength and resolve and dignity of these people that produced this art form that basically fueled global popular culture.

The American South, there’s a lot of judgment about people down there, like “They talk different. They’re not as sharp.” And the reality being, you really look at it, they’re some of the sharpest people. A lot of the evil that was done down there was not done out of ignorance, it was done very consciously and for reasons often associated with business.

All the false narratives of that time really spoke to me during the process of making this film and I came out of it with a renewed respect for myself, my ancestors and on the world. It makes me want to interrogate everything.

Director Ryan Coogler, left, and Michael B. Jordan pose for photographers upon arrival at the premiere of the film 'Sinners' on Monday, April 14, 2025, in London. (Photo by Scott A Garfitt/Invision/AP)

Director Ryan Coogler, left, and Michael B. Jordan pose for photographers upon arrival at the premiere of the film 'Sinners' on Monday, April 14, 2025, in London. (Photo by Scott A Garfitt/Invision/AP)

Director Ryan Coogler, left, and actor Michael B. Jordan attend the premiere of "Sinners" at AMC Lincoln Square on Thursday, April 3, 2025, in New York. (Photo by Evan Agostini/Invision/AP)

WASHINGTON (AP) — White House national security adviser Mike Waltz is leaving the administration just weeks after it was revealed he added a journalist to a Signal chat being used to discuss military plans, according to two people familiar with the matter Thursday, marking the first major staff shake-up of President Donald Trump’s second term.

Waltz came under searing scrutiny in March after revelations that he added journalist Jeffrey Goldberg to a private text chain on the encrypted messaging app Signal, which was used to discuss planning for a sensitive March 15 military operation against Houthi militants in Yemen. A far-right ally of the president, Laura Loomer, has also targeted Waltz, telling Trump in a recent Oval Office conversation that he needs to purge aides who she believes are insufficiently loyal to the “Make America Great Again” agenda.

Waltz’s deputy, Alex Wong, is also expected to depart, according to the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a personnel move not yet made public. The National Security Council did not respond do a request for comment.

Waltz, who served in the House representing Florida for three terms before his elevation to the White House, is the most prominent senior administration official to depart since Trump returned to the White House. In his second term, the Republican president had been looking to avoid the tumult of his first four years in office, during which he cycled through four national security advisers, four White House chiefs of staff and two secretaries of state.

The Signal chain also showed that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth provided the exact timings of warplane launches and when bombs would drop. Waltz had previously taken “full responsibility” for building the message chain and administration officials described the episode as a “mistake” but one that caused Americans no harm. Waltz maintained that he was not sure how Goldberg ended up in the messaging chain, and insisted he did not know the journalist.

Trump and the White House — which insisted that no classified information was shared on the text chain — have stood by Waltz publicly throughout the episode. But the embattled national security adviser was also under siege from personalities such as Loomer, who had been complaining to administration officials that she had been excluded from the vetting process for National Security Council aides. In her view, Waltz relied too much on “neocons” — referring to hawkish neoconservatives within the Republican Party — as well as others who Loomer argued were “not-MAGA-enough” types.

Waltz was on television as late as Thursday morning, promoting the administration’s agreement with Kyiv that would allow the U.S. to access Ukraine’s critical minerals and other natural resources. As reports began to circulate that Waltz could be leaving the administration, Loomer appeared to take credit in a post on the social media site X, writing: “SCALP.”

“Hopefully, the rest of the people who were set to be fired but were given promotions at the NSC under Waltz also depart,” Loomer wrote in another post.

Loomer had taken a similar victory lap when several other NSC officials were dismissed last month one day after she met with Trump. Those firings included Brian Walsh, a director for intelligence; Thomas Boodry, a senior director for legislative affairs; and David Feith, a senior director for technology and national security, as well as other lower-ranking aides.

Waltz’s resignation comes as questions are swirling around Hegseth and his role in the Signal chat.

While Waltz set it up, Hegseth posted times for aircraft launches and bomb drops into the unsecured app and shared the same information with dozens of people in a second chat, including his wife and brother.

The Associated Press reported that Hegseth also bypassed Pentagon security protocols to set up an unsecured line for a personal computer in his office –- beside terminals where he was receiving classified information. That raises the possibility that sensitive information could have been put at risk of potential hacking or surveillance.

The Pentagon inspector general is investigating Hegseth’s use of Signal, and he has faced criticism from Democrats and even some Republicans. It has added to the turmoil at the Pentagon at a time when Hegseth has dismissed or transferred multiple close advisers. Nonetheless, Trump has maintained public confidence in Hegseth.

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Associated Press writer Tara Copp contributed to this report.

White House national security adviser Mike Waltz listens as President Donald Trump meets with Italy's Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni in the Oval Office of the White House, Thursday, April 17, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

National Security Advisor Mike Waltz speaks during a television interview at the White House, Thursday, May 1, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

National Security Advisor Mike Waltz speaks during a television interview at the White House, Thursday, May 1, 2025, in Washington. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)